Author Topic: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / Brooklyn & Hurricane  (Read 200655 times)

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Offline Jazzerkins

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #572 on: June 11, 2012, 20:59 »
Welcome to the forum, Pense.   :D   I have also wondered the same thing and do not know the answer.  I am sure TPC or one of the phanatics can answer your question.

Offline Pense

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #571 on: June 11, 2012, 20:56 »
Hi.  I'm new to the Forum although I have been following along as a guest the last two years.  So firstly I just want to thank everyone for their comments and questions.  I've learned so much about the falcons just by reading everything that's been posted by everyone.

I have a question now about the discarded last egg.  Do we know how the parent falcons know or decide that an egg is no longer viable?

Offline susha

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #570 on: June 11, 2012, 20:17 »
Not sure what happened...I was watching a frantic feeding ( 8:29 ) on the CBC site witch looked like speeded up video...but that wasn't what was going on in real time There was no feeding   ???
Perhaps TPC will explain.

So every so often, when I first go onto the cam view, it is speeded up...sometimes a feeding, sometimes just parent and chicks, but definitely speeded up for just a few seconds - it's quite comical and oh-so peaceful when it goes back to normal speed 8)

Offline bcbird

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #569 on: June 11, 2012, 20:13 »
We're so lucky to have such a closeup view and ear to their worlds for these few months.  :-* :-*

I agree, and especially with the ear.  I love the sound of the nest boxes!  Even bagpipes.

Offline RCF

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #568 on: June 11, 2012, 19:45 »
The Cams sure have come a long way since 2008! - We're so lucky to have such a closeup view and ear to their worlds for these few months.  :-* :-*

That is for sure!!  :)
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 19:53 by RCF »

Offline ballywing

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #567 on: June 11, 2012, 19:43 »
That's an ADORABLE video RCF!!  ;D - What a contrast to the Radisson chicks who are Big Lumbering Lugs now!  ;).....It's nice to be able to switch back & forth and watch them all in such different stages! The Cams sure have come a long way since 2008! - We're so lucky to have such a closeup view and ear to their worlds for these few months.  :-* :-*

Offline RCF

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #566 on: June 11, 2012, 19:25 »

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #565 on: June 11, 2012, 17:17 »
Thank you for the long and thoughtful answer but how does that account for the light/dark coloured demarcation of the discarded egg and I'm sure that everyone noted the very definite depression on an egg in the clutch because there were comments on the thread. I'm sure everyone will be interested in your explanations. :)

Until I can get a better look at the egg (i.e., it is in my hand), I can't say for sure what is going on with the egg.  Best theory at the moment is that the light dark demarcation is half an eggshell stuck over the end of the egg.  And looking at it on the webcam, that's what it seems like to me as well.  Is it a major issue?  'Fraid not.  If there was a chick, its not going to hatch now so retrieving it would be for interest sake only.  Add to that the Brandon chicks are less than 10 days old, so can't thermoregulate, and the weather is cool and wet, chances are, there won't be any attempt to retrive the egg right now.  In the meantime, Hurricane and Brooklyn might ignore it or remove it themselves at any time.

Hope that helps with an answer  :)

Offline ballywing

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #564 on: June 11, 2012, 17:04 »
Going to be a chilly night for Hurricane & kids - Wind keeps blowing Mom's feathers up - Crazy weather - I think the low is only +3 tonight  ::)

Offline Rose

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #563 on: June 11, 2012, 14:44 »
So intentional or unintentional?  My two cents, first knock was unintentional, second was given the adults' subsequent behaviour since it happened on the 9th.
Does it really matter how it got to where it's position now is? What really matters is how it got to be in the condition it appears to be in (an egg of two colors, light and dark). Did a half shell from a previous hatch get pushed onto the light colored egg or visa versa(the three hatches were close together lots of shells around),as happened at  James River Bridge site in 2008. Under these circumstances the chick can't peck through the two shells and sufficates.Also how can we tell what egg in the clutch it is, Number 1, 2, 3 or 4?

The why is interesting and important from my perspective - it tells me how Hurricane and Brooklyn are developing and evolving as parents.  Last year because it was so wet, wasn't a good year to get a sense of how these birds individually and as a pair behave.  Determining how they deal with eggs will let us know for future years what they are going to do or what it means when they have done something.  Think of Pa in the Netherlands, poor bird just won't give up.  If Hurricane and Brooklyn were the same way, we would intervene so they weren't wasting their reserves/resources on a lost cause.  Knowing that within a week they will cut their losses means that in the future we can be pretty sure they are going to handle it appropriately.

Your scenario about the chick suffocating because there were two egg shells wouldn't appear to apply here because the depression in the eggshell, presumably the expansion of the "pip" is free and clear as seen on numerous photos and video clips.  It is just as likely that the eggshell was thinner, perhaps because of the delay in laying since her first three eggs hatched out fine, so the depression was caused by one of the parents in which case the chick was probably in trouble long before hatching.

And there is no way to tell the eggs apart by lay date, just that in this case because of the very long lag between when egg 3 and egg 4 was laid, it would be highly unlikely that egg 4 would hatch out at the same time as its sibs - it was between 4 and 6 days younger, which is a very long time in incubation.  The egg itself was pretty dark as well, the colour tends to wear off the longer it is from laying and from being "polished" by feathers and pebbles during incubation.

So what happens is important because it will let us better understand what is going on in future years.   It could also help us in the future to identify if there is reproductively a problem with this pair - like Hurricane's small size or incubation/brooding behaviours, which is different for every pair.  Hurricane can produce four chicks - she did with Zeus but he was exceedingly experienced.  With Brooklyn she hasn't managed to do the same - last year the weather was horrendous so its out of the mix for now.  This year more normal for both of these birds so if half of a sib's shell is on the fourth egg, was it just an accident/luck or is it that Hurricane and Brooklyn don't pull out eggshells once they hatch?  Princess for example pulls/spins them out from under her almost before the chick is free, but she's bigger and maybe the shells bug her more when she's on the chicks/eggs. Hurricane and Brooklyn don't have egg shells around much, either eaten, carried away or stomped into little pieces.  Will that change as they get more experienced? Or will that just be their "way".  There's nothing wrong with any of this, it's all just what peregrines do naturally, so working out how the birds respond will help us when new situations arise.
Thank you for the long and thoughtful answer but how does that account for the light/dark coloured demarcation of the discarded egg and I'm sure that everyone noted the very definite depression on an egg in the clutch because there were comments on the thread. I'm sure everyone will be interested in your explanations. :)

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #562 on: June 11, 2012, 14:12 »
So intentional or unintentional?  My two cents, first knock was unintentional, second was given the adults' subsequent behaviour since it happened on the 9th.
Does it really matter how it got to where it's position now is? What really matters is how it got to be in the condition it appears to be in (an egg of two colors, light and dark). Did a half shell from a previous hatch get pushed onto the light colored egg or visa versa(the three hatches were close together lots of shells around),as happened at  James River Bridge site in 2008. Under these circumstances the chick can't peck through the two shells and sufficates.Also how can we tell what egg in the clutch it is, Number 1, 2, 3 or 4?

The why is interesting and important from my perspective - it tells me how Hurricane and Brooklyn are developing and evolving as parents.  Last year because it was so wet, wasn't a good year to get a sense of how these birds individually and as a pair behave.  Determining how they deal with eggs will let us know for future years what they are going to do or what it means when they have done something.  Think of Pa in the Netherlands, poor bird just won't give up.  If Hurricane and Brooklyn were the same way, we would intervene so they weren't wasting their reserves/resources on a lost cause.  Knowing that within a week they will cut their losses means that in the future we can be pretty sure they are going to handle it appropriately.

Your scenario about the chick suffocating because there were two egg shells wouldn't appear to apply here because the depression in the eggshell, presumably the expansion of the "pip" is free and clear as seen on numerous photos and video clips.  It is just as likely that the eggshell was thinner, perhaps because of the delay in laying since her first three eggs hatched out fine, so the depression was caused by one of the parents in which case the chick was probably in trouble long before hatching.

And there is no way to tell the eggs apart by lay date, just that in this case because of the very long lag between when egg 3 and egg 4 was laid, it would be highly unlikely that egg 4 would hatch out at the same time as its sibs - it was between 4 and 6 days younger, which is a very long time in incubation.  The egg itself was pretty dark as well, the colour tends to wear off the longer it is from laying and from being "polished" by feathers and pebbles during incubation.

So what happens is important because it will let us better understand what is going on in future years.   It could also help us in the future to identify if there is reproductively a problem with this pair - like Hurricane's small size or incubation/brooding behaviours, which is different for every pair.  Hurricane can produce four chicks - she did with Zeus but he was exceedingly experienced.  With Brooklyn she hasn't managed to do the same - last year the weather was horrendous so its out of the mix for now.  This year more normal for both of these birds so if half of a sib's shell is on the fourth egg, was it just an accident/luck or is it that Hurricane and Brooklyn don't pull out eggshells once they hatch?  Princess for example pulls/spins them out from under her almost before the chick is free, but she's bigger and maybe the shells bug her more when she's on the chicks/eggs. Hurricane and Brooklyn don't have egg shells around much, either eaten, carried away or stomped into little pieces.  Will that change as they get more experienced? Or will that just be their "way".  There's nothing wrong with any of this, it's all just what peregrines do naturally, so working out how the birds respond will help us when new situations arise.

Offline RCF

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #561 on: June 11, 2012, 13:11 »
The video you watched had been shortened and it was Hurricane that returned and kicked the egg to the wall. Also the same day I took the video and after the egg had been kicked to the side I saw one of the parents roll the egg towards the inside where you could see it again.  So that's why I don't think it was intentional.  :)  

This is my original video.  The egg gets kicked at about 8:10 in the video.
http://youtu.be/p2g1-I603MM  
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 13:21 by RCF »

Offline Rose

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #560 on: June 11, 2012, 13:05 »


So intentional or unintentional?  My two cents, first knock was unintentional, second was given the adults' subsequent behaviour since it happened on the 9th.
Does it really matter how it got to where it's position now is? What really matters is how it got to be in the condition it appears to be in (an egg of two colors, light and dark). Did a half shell from a previous hatch get pushed onto the light colored egg or visa versa(the three hatches were close together lots of shells around),as happened at  James River Bridge site in 2008. Under these circumstances the chick can't peck through the two shells and sufficates.Also how can we tell what egg in the clutch it is, Number 1, 2, 3 or 4?

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #559 on: June 11, 2012, 12:16 »
Had a look at the video and interestingly, its Brooklyn not Hurricane that made the final call.  We don't have that many lost eggs or chicks and those we do are usually dealt with by the female.  The chicks probably because she is the one "on" more the last few days before hatching and for the first week after hatching when chicks are most likely to die young.  As for intention, the first knock with the meal was unintentional, but I'm pretty sure the second was - the nestbox is large enough for him to enter/exit without ever touching that egg but he didn't, he came in, stopped and almost scuffled with it and rolled it way out of range (relatively speaking) of the chicks and the nestscrape (almost on a diagonal from the nest corner).  It is forlornly sitting about an inch from the wall facing the window-cam that is why you can't see it but it is still there and there has been no attempt to retrieve it from what I have seen so far from either parent.

So intentional or unintentional?  My two cents, first knock was unintentional, second was given the adults' subsequent behaviour since it happened on the 9th.

Offline RCF

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Re: McKenzie Seeds - 2012 / June
« Reply #558 on: June 11, 2012, 11:51 »
Hm - watched it a few times and it looked intentional to me - I guess we'll never know, but it sure is a weird looking egg. Glad the 3 are doing so well in their super new condo!!  8) - great video RCF!!!  :-*

I guess it could look that way.  ???