Author Topic: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2009-22  (Read 15398 times)

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Offline carly

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Thanks TPC - your replies are always so intelligent and informative.  I suppose cannibalism in a species is just not right to me and killing one's offspring as well.  I don't imagine any species would evolve if those behaviors were normal.  

I remember Doorly!  We have a female over here that keeps consuming her eggs, every clutch - year after year.  It's at a site with much competition so every year she has to battle off other females but even after she does that and reclutches - she lays the eggs and then immediately consumes them...be interesting to see what happens this year.  Although it's strange, I suppose we don't think as much of it because the eggs aren't developed, watching a female kill her own offspring though for me was just too much.  I guess that's why I'm not a biologist  :-\

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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As a note to all, another chick has hatched and from what I could see of its fuzzy little butt, looks fine. And there is still one more egg under whomever is incubating/brooding - sorry, don't know the markers to tell Hope from Terzo.  If I had to guess though, I think it is Hope by the size. 

It is raining in Pittsburgh but everyone is well out of the wet.

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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That being said, she killed the newborn right in front of her other offspring - is the other one too young to have that imprinted on him/her?  or will he/she grow up thinking it's 'normal' to kill one of my kids to feed to the other? 

At this stage the chicks' eyes aren't even open so no worries there.

And Terzo may not be that invested in these kids as they aren't his, we've had similar situations here and the new male doesn't hurt the kids but he doesn't feed them or go out of his way to help other than to feed the female and baby sit when he has to.  So if he doesn't step up on the feeding - is she going to kill more kids to feed one?  I don't know,l know it's nature but I'm not watching that...too hard for me. 

The peregrines can't tell if they are "their" chicks or not and it really doesn't play into their maternal/paternal care.  Remember, recovery projects relied on the fact that you can add/move chicks from nest to nest and the adults don't change their behaviour toward them.  T-Rex when he was less than a year old would feed chicks in a hackbox before they were released and then later after a couple of nests of his own, he took over four eggs belonging to his father.  This year it may be that Faith's eggs are not Ty's - the timing is so very tight and she was involved with Hart even after Ty returned.  Parenting for peregrines is hardwired and hormonal.  Hardwired to respond to cues from mates and chicks.  Hormonal to stick to a territory, a mate and eggs/chicks whether they are theirs or not.  Does this always apply? It appears to if both adults are at about the same point in the hormonal cycle.  However, if a resident male were killed, the interloper male's cycle isn't in sync with a female who is incubating or brooding and male neglect can result or the hardwiring can jumpstart the hormonal or bridge the gap so to speak and the male gets "better" as time goes along.

There are always outliers with any behaviour but they don't define species behaviour, they are just what they are, outliers who's actions (which is different from behaviour) are predictable only to them.  Madame was an outlier, she didn't migrate.  Why didn't she migrate?  Don't know.  None of her offspring or her grand-offspring (more than 3/4 of all chicks produced in this province are related to her) have shown any inclination.  The only other bird with a (relatively) short migration is not related to her at all.  The rest of them migrate pretty much everywhere - east through Florida and west into/through Mexico.  Remember Doorly?  Know one could figure out why he destroyed the eggs in his first few nests.  They were just about to remove him when one of his chicks managed to hatch.  After that, all was great.  His destruction of the eggs was his outlier action but turns out his parenting behaviour after that first successful hatch was pretty much textbook.  So was the destruction really an outlier or did he know something we didn't even in the egg?  (As I recall, they never did report if the eggs were viable or not - Hope & Doorly were half-sibs).

Offline carly

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I don't know Bev, she may not be crazy but her years on the bridge may have affected how she raises young.

If you read the paper, this has been observed in other nests but there were extreme conditions.  Could the fact that she kept losing mates and had to raise offspring on her own have affected her?  Maybe she doesn't trust that Terzo will stick around after all E2 vanished as well. 

That being said, she killed the newborn right in front of her other offspring - is the other one too young to have that imprinted on him/her?  or will he/she grow up thinking it's 'normal' to kill one of my kids to feed to the other? 

It's one thing to leave the weakest to die naturally, seen that several times but to outright kill it the way she did..she just seemed so deliberate...

And Terzo may not be that invested in these kids as they aren't his, we've had similar situations here and the new male doesn't hurt the kids but he doesn't feed them or go out of his way to help other than to feed the female and baby sit when he has to.  So if he doesn't step up on the feeding - is she going to kill more kids to feed one?  I don't know,l know it's nature but I'm not watching that...too hard for me.

Offline carly

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Some one posted a link to a paper on Kate's blog that discusses
Brood Reduction by Infanticide in Peregrine Falcons, well worth a read and a keeper for future reference.

http://pubs.aina.ucalgary.ca/arctic/Arctic66-2-226.pdf


Offline bev.

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #72 on: April 30, 2016, 19:20 »
I thought same TPC

a lot are harsh on her, but every falcons behaves differently , and I do believer chick would not have made it. I like Hope :-*and she has had a rough time.

I was watching the hatch.

I was also  wondering if because incubation was on and off so much, that they stuck to egg shell, and she was trying to get of off shell. we knwo they have to be turned often.

she and Terzo have a good relationship so sh e is not crazy. sometimes we are just not prepped for all that nature presents

this year has been one of strange events.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2016, 19:23 by bev. »

Offline burdi

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #71 on: April 30, 2016, 14:40 »
Makes me wonder if something was wrong with the chick ... saw the video and she was pretty deliberate.  Since one chick had already hatched and she is quite maternal with it, it seems odd that she should behave so differently with the second chick.  Couldn't get a good look at the chick but Jules who was hyper protective of her kids, had a chick with deformities, she just tucked her healthy chick under her (that was Polo) and sat watching her only other chick six inches away from her as it lay drying out in the sun.  I got a look at the chick and it wouldn't have made it and she knew that right from hatch and was able to make that decision right at the point of hatching.  She let it die quickly in the warm afternoon sun and then (as I recall) removed it from the nestbox in the middle of the night.

I believe your thoughts are correct TPC.

Also, thank you for the warning message.


Offline burdi

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #70 on: April 30, 2016, 14:36 »
Number two is hatching now!   ;D :-*

Apparently she killed it and fed it to the first one.   :'( :'(  I didn't personally see it so we'll see what happened when the site admin posts later on today.  Let's hope the third one they say is hatching now survives.

Oh Geez!  :(

How terribly sad to read about the 2nd hatch. :'(


Offline carly

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #69 on: April 30, 2016, 07:33 »
Update from Kate this morning:

Yesterday morning we were excited that the first peregrine egg hatched at Pitt and looked forward to a second hatching later in the day.

At around 2:15pm the second egg hatched. Hope manipulated it, killed it, and fed it to the first chick.

This is not normal peregrine behavior.

Viewers were shocked and bewildered.  Many of you had questions but I was out of cell range for most of the day, unaware that it happened.

I have never seen this behavior before and don’t know why it occurred.  Here’s what we do know: Peregrines’ lives are very different from ours. Using our human yardstick to understand them — anthropomorphizing — really leads us astray.

I asked Art McMorris, the PA Game Commission’s Peregrine Coordinator, who viewed the archived footage and said the chick was alive but might not have been normal.  In all his years of dealing with peregrines, Art has never seen this before either.

Hope’s behavior was so unusual that there is no information on it.  Many of you speculated about it and asked “Is this why she did it?”  In almost every case my answer is “I don’t know.”


http://www.birdsoutsidemywindow.org/2016/04/30/bewildering-birth-and-death/?platform=hootsuite

Offline GCG

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #68 on: April 30, 2016, 04:36 »
I prefer not to watch.

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #67 on: April 29, 2016, 20:11 »

WARNING:  The April 29TH video of the 2nd chick hatching & dying is graphic and may disturb more than a few members.

(the quality of the image in a way makes it even more disturbing)

Offline The Peregrine Chick

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #66 on: April 29, 2016, 20:07 »
Makes me wonder if something was wrong with the chick ... saw the video and she was pretty deliberate.  Since one chick had already hatched and she is quite maternal with it, it seems odd that she should behave so differently with the second chick.  Couldn't get a good look at the chick but Jules who was hyper protective of her kids, had a chick with deformities, she just tucked her healthy chick under her (that was Polo) and sat watching her only other chick six inches away from her as it lay drying out in the sun.  I got a look at the chick and it wouldn't have made it and she knew that right from hatch and was able to make that decision right at the point of hatching.  She let it die quickly in the warm afternoon sun and then (as I recall) removed it from the nestbox in the middle of the night.

Offline RCF

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #65 on: April 29, 2016, 19:09 »
Number two is hatching now!   ;D :-*

Apparently she killed it and fed it to the first one.   :'( :'(  I didn't personally see it so we'll see what happened when the site admin posts later on today.  Let's hope the third one they say is hatching now survives.

Oh Geez!  :(

Offline carly

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #64 on: April 29, 2016, 16:52 »
Number two is hatching now!   ;D :-*

Apparently she killed it and fed it to the first one.   :'( :'(  I didn't personally see it so we'll see what happened when the site admin posts later on today.  Let's hope the third one they say is hatching now survives.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2016, 18:12 by carly »

Offline RCF

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Re: PA / Pittsburgh - Cathedral of Learning - 2016 / Terzo & Hope
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2016, 12:55 »
Number two is hatching now!   ;D :-*